Doubting Bro

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Posts by Doubting Bro

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  31

  Has anyone here been a 'chairman' for an assembly? Question with regard to the script for introductions

  by ThomasCovenant in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  does anyone know if the chairman's introductions and announcements are completely scripted?

  particularly with the use of adjectives and adverbs when introducing talks and speakers.. 'as we listen intentedly....'.

  'we eagerly look forward to bro so and so's talk'.

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  Doubting Bro

  JWF - Thanks for the update and for the script. Hope things are going well for you too and we really appreciate your postings!
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  11

  bethel rooms for rent

  by DaCheech in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a letter posted on the congregation bulletin board.. it said that one can plan and put an application to rent brooklyn rooms for up to 3 days?.

  anyone know the details?.

  is contribution necessary?.

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  Doubting Bro

  I read that the other day but haven't seen the application for it. I would bet there is a suggested contribution but I'm sure it's far below what a NYC hotel room would go for. I'll see what I can find out.

  My opinion is that those rooms are just sitting vacant so they may as well get a little revenue from them.
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  31

  YMCA now I am mad!!!

  by loosie in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i talked to a current jw today and he told me that it came out in print from the wtbts that you can be a memebr of the ymca as long as you don't associate with the other worldlys that go there..

  omg!!!

  just a few years ago i was told that i couldn't be at the ymca because it was a christian org.. .

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  Doubting Bro

  I just had a discussion about this with my brother who is a recently appointed elder. He thought it was a "matter of conscious" until I directed him to the 1979 QFR. I told him he really needs to know the rules if he's going to be an elder!

  I just went to my local Y website and elder-patrol, I don't see where there's a day use only fee. It looks like you have to become a "member", pay a joining fee and then a monthly fee. I see where they have a sliding scale for the fees based on income but they don't advertise that you can use the facilities such as the pool or gym without joining. I'm in the US, maybe it's different other places. I do see that you don't have to sign a contract.

  Honestly, I can't see what the difference would be anyway unless there was something objectionable in the contract. No different than going to a Catholic or Baptist hospital.
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  31

  Has anyone here been a 'chairman' for an assembly? Question with regard to the script for introductions

  by ThomasCovenant in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  does anyone know if the chairman's introductions and announcements are completely scripted?

  particularly with the use of adjectives and adverbs when introducing talks and speakers.. 'as we listen intentedly....'.

  'we eagerly look forward to bro so and so's talk'.

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  Doubting Bro

  I recall the first time I was a chairman being given a script and I was floored that every word was scripted. I joked with the CO that maybe he should script out the opening prayer for me as well.

  wannabefree - there are several manuscript talks each year but as you say not all are. However, the speakers must "practice" in front of a committee(at least I've had to in the past) who will approve the talk. I'm sure the CO & DO are exempt from this since they're usually on the committee.

  I doubt many organizations will script comments between speakers to this level. I've been to professional conferences and while the speaker's introduction is scripted (providing bio information) certainly not every word is. Basically, I felt like they just didn't put any trust in a low level manager being able to do anything right.
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  77

  Generation - topic dedicated to debator

  by teel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

  i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

  hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

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  Doubting Bro

  Debator,

  Thanks for the reply. One point you didn't respond to in my post was the point about disfellowshipping those that asked questions or had differences of opinion. In Paul's list of offenses that would cause the congregation to view the wrong doer as a non-Christian (I don't want to sidetrack the conversation regarding how the disfellowshipped are treated because it's not really pertaint to the discussion), no where is harboring private doubts listed. Yet, the Flock book (assuming you have access) lists that as a disfellowshipping offense. I really think they overstep bounds that even Jesus or Paul didn't cross which seems to imply the GB believes they have full apostlic authority to generate rules beyond what is written in the Bible.

  I understand your insisting there is a difference between spirit or bible guided and inspired. The bible condemns murder and theft. So, you can say that you're bible guided if you refuse to do those things based on those writings. However, inspired would be enforcing a rule detailing what constitutes theft. In this sense, the WTS wants folks to follow the rules they promulgate in the same fashion that they expect JWs to follow something written in the scriptures. TD mentioned blood fractions. Over the years, this has changed many times. The WTS has put out specific rules regarding which treatments are acceptable and which are not. However, shouldn't an individual get to decide what they think constitutes "blood" and what is broken down sufficiently enough to say its not blood any longer? If I accepted a blood fraction such as hemoglobin prior to 2004 and confessed to the BOE, I could have been disfellowshipped losing family and friends. However, after 2004, I could take that treatment without sanction. So, if I was convinced that the WTS was being guided by Holy Spirit to say hemoglobin was scriptually wrong and died as a result, who's responsible? Me? I guess in one sense because I would have put faith in men. But I think that's the point, the WTS asks us to faithfully follow their words as if they are inspired and back that up with the possibility of being shunned. If they were asking on direct orders of Jehovah (thus inspired) then fine. Otherwise, it's their opinion and while they are free to put it out there, they overstep "guidance" by enforcing their opinions.

  Regarding the appointment of elders, having been one for a number of years, I understand how this works. But, even then, it's a bit disingenuous. Many in the congregation believe that elders are directly appointed by holy spirit. In year's past, this is how the WTS presented the process. Now, they've back off a bit saying that elders are appointed by holy spirit in the sense the qualifications are set out in Tim & Titus which was written under inspiration. That's really not the same. Quite frankly, as an elder in several congregations, what happens is the secretary brings in the box with the time records and when a brother's name is brought up, those records are pulled to see if he and his wife (and kids if they're publishers) are reporting at least 10 hours a month (on average). If no, then the discussion is dropped. Yet, neither Tim or Titus mentions this as a qualification to being an elder. In places I've been, the only other points of discussion are usually 1) does he give decent talks, 2) comment regularly, 3) visible to the congregation, 4) will he get along with the rest of the BOE or be tough to work with. The rest of the qualifications are usually not even discussed.

  Actually, when I read the entire Greek scriptures in context, I saw just the opposite of high organization. The scripture in Galations 2 is a great example. So you have James, Peter and John (reputed to be pillars in the Jerusalem congregation) speaking with Paul and Barnabas talking about where they should preach. They (everyone) agreed that Paul was called directly by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations and that's where he would go while they (everyone) agreed that James, Peter & John would stick with the Jews. Under WT structure, Paul & Barnabas would have been told what to do. Read that whole chapter and tell me if Paul believed in any sense that he reported to the Jerusalem elders. The WTS often refers to Paul functioning in a similar fashion to a CO today. Now, what do you think would happen if a CO told the branch "Nah, the spirit is leading me to go here instead of where you want to send me"? We both know that brother wouldn't be in the circuit work much longer. I know what you're going to say, "it doesn't work that way today". I agree, but then you have to admit that the structure of the WTS today is much different than the 1st century congregation because Jesus played an active role in directing the work with individual members as opposed to the claim that he is working only with the GB.

  Yes, the individual congregations were organized in terms of having fellowship, taking care of its members, buidling each other up in faith, etc. But I don't see anything above that. In Revelations, Jesus directs counsel to individual congregations. Why? Because it was the early Christian believe that the individual congregations answered only to Jesus as the head. If you can point out where the middle man is, I'd love to see it.

  As for disagreeing over prophcey, having that correct I believe would be the mark that an organization is operating under spirit direction. If they're not sure, they should say it and not make a big deal of it. But, saying that the passages in the book of Revelation are fulfilled in the WTS (such as the 7 seals being 7 conventions - see Revelation - It's Grand Climax book) and then expecting everyone to just accept it is difficult to swallow. I see the WTS as the ones that would look to punish those who attempt to act as the Beoreans and demand proof for such high claims. Obviously, since I have family in I just avoid discussing such troubling items because I don't want to be shunned.

  As for 607, I've read 3rd witnesses arguments and there's quite a bit of circular logic. There are way more than 2 secular sources and if you look in the Kingdom Come book, there's an appendix that admits there is a large amount of evidence pointing away from 607. Even the website you referred to admits in the opening paragraph that there isn't secular evidence supporting 607. If 607 were such a pivoital date and God desires "all to be saved" why isn't there more evidence? If they discover evidence that puts the destruction of Jerusalem at 607, then while that still doesn't prove that Daniels 7 times prophsey had another fulfillment, at least it's something. Just saying because I said so is fine when a parent is talking to a 2 year old but it's not fine on matters of such importance. I want more proof than that.

  I agree that it's fine to think that JWs are God's chosen people. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to disagree (at least to anyone I know) without serious, long lasting repercussions. I really think that's the biggest shame of all.
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  28

  A Green Handshake

  by dgp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just learned that sometimes people give "green handshakes".

  is this the same as bribing your way up?.

  thanks for any posts..

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  Doubting Bro

  I actually only gave the CO money once. He was a great guy and I really enjoyed being around him. His wife was fantastic which in my experience is pretty rare for a CO wife. Obviously, they had very little cash. So, my wife and I sent him and his wife a card with some cash in it. It was their wedding anniversary and we thought about taking them out but realized that they would have a much better time just the two of them and wanted to buy them dinner.

  It was a gesture that I would have done for a friend. I also had several friends in Bethel and when we would visit them in NYC, we'd take them out and pay. That $120 doesn't go very far.

  I do agree that some use it to gain favor with the CO. I've seen it happen often and it always seemed wrong to me but mainly because of the way it was done. But, as LWT says, it's not like these folks are wealthy. And if the donations on the accounts reports are any indication as to how generous JWs are, I seriously doubt they're getting rich.
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  77

  Generation - topic dedicated to debator

  by teel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

  i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

  hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

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  Doubting Bro

  debator -

  Couple of comments for you:

  I agree that the GB doesn't have apostolic authority but as a lifelong JW and having served as an elder (stepped down a couple of years ago because I could not support teaching things I didn't agree with such as the generation teaching and 1914, etc - still attending meetings) I always believed that JWs were the restoration of "true Christianity" and that the GB was functioning in a similar fashion as the apostles did in the first century. I don't have specific WT quotes at my fingertips but that is certainly inferred if not directly stated. The 1919 appointment of the WTS reps as the faithful and discreet slave teaching seems to indicate that while they don't have "gifts" of prophecy it was not because Holy Spirit wasn't using them, it was because all the prophecy necessary was already given. But, the decisions rendered by the GB are given the same weight as decisions rendered by the apostlic counsel in Acts. Are you saying that's not the case? Just curious because every JW I know believes that disobeying the GB is akin to disobeying Jehovah.

  Regarding whether they are a false prophet, I agree with you that they have misinterpretated prophecy but have never really put something new out there. However, the weight of their misinterpretation is serious and the repercussions of disagreeing with their interpretation is above and beyond anything written in Scripture. So, in this way, I think they have overstepped their bounds. For example, if I were to report to my local BOE that I do not believe that Jesus presence began in 1914, I could be disfellowshipped. Harboring even private doubts (according to the Flock book) are a basis for judicial action. Do you think Paul (someone with full apostilic authority) would have treated someone like that. Did Jesus disavow Peter for denying him or Thomas for asking him to prove that it was really him? So, if those guys didn't drop the hammer, how is it that the WTS can demand such obiedence?

  A study of early Christianity will show that the first century congregations did not have the high level of organization that we see within the WTS today. Paul undertook missionary missions at the direction of Jesus, not the congregation in Jerusalem. The name Christian came from Antioch not the apostlic counsel. I agree that the Scriptures do talk about folks taking the lead in the congregations, but disagree that it mandates the level of control exercised by the WTS.

  The basic premise of the religion is that Jesus returned in 1914 (according the prophesy based on a timeframe mentioned in Daniel and tied to the destruction of Jerusalem by Bablyon) and that he inspected all religions that claimed to be his followers on earth. Out of all the religions, he choose what is now JWs because at that time, they were teaching the closest thing to the "truth". Since 1919, JWs have functioned as the earthly part of God's Organization. If the basic premise is true, the rest doesn't really matter. If it's not true, then the religion is just like any other religion.

  After investigating, I've come to the conclusion that the basic premise isn't true because:

  1) there is nothing in Daniel that would even hint that the 7 times could be applied anything beyond the initial prophsey (that Neb would be brought down for 7 years and then restored, which is what happened).

  2) there is no evidence that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607. Rather all available evidence points to 20 years earlier. And, there is a wealth of documents and records, none of which indicate the missing 20 years.

  3) there is no evidence of any direct involvement from God regarding the operation of the organization. Every other time Jehovah used a group of folks or an individual, there was direct involvement (Noah, Moses, Jacob, nation of Israel, apostles). Can you give me an example from the Bible where someone was used by God and could not point to some supernatural proof? I would expect that the restoration of the true Christian faith would have some sort of evidence of divine approval. Isn't that a reasonable expectation?

  If it could be proved to me that the basic premise is in fact true, I'd return to being an elder and aggressively pushing the WTS as God's organization. Sorry for the length and I'm glad you're here having a discussion.
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  14

  Free to remarry?

  by Earnest in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i wonder if anyone can help with this information?

  i seem to recall that if a husband or wife commits adultery and is divorced, is it necessary for the innocent party to agree before that one can be reinstated?

  regardless of that answer if the person is reinstated and wishes to remarry do they need the agreement of the innocent party before they can remarry if they wish to maintain a good standing in the congregation?.

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  Doubting Bro

  Earnest,

  Yknot is 100% correct. They can prevent them from getting married in the KH and even discourage any local elders from marrying them but from a WTS standpoint, the innocent mate refused to forgive and thus both the innocent mate and the cheating mate are "free" to remarry without congregational sanctions.

  From personal experience, where this will come into play is if the man was the guilty mate and in the future they try to appoint him. I saw Bethel ask questions about someone who was a MS for several years and when recommended as an elder, a letter came back requesting the BOE to interview the ex-spouse (who wasn't a JW anymore) specifically to see if her former spouse's actions were why she wasn't a JW. I've also seen a situation where someone was recommended as a MS and had cheated on his spouse years earlier. She had forgiven him and stayed married but we still had to talk to her about it and ask if she "respected" him from a spiritual standpoint before moving forward. Needless to say, that was an uncomfortable conversation and caused her immense pain for having to relive the infidelity.

  yknot -you know more about WTS procedure than the average JW elder. You're quite an elderette!!!
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  121

  New Generation understanding tied to Freddie Franz

  by 5thGeneration in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  also don't know if this has been mentioned previously.. our speaker yesterday, gb member br.

  pierce, tied the overlap theory directly to fred franz's lifetime.. did anyone else catch this?.

  evidently (and i'm paraphrasing), anyone anointed after franz's death in 1992 is not of the 'generation'.. 5th.

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  Doubting Bro

  Bane,

  Let me help you a bit. Here's Matt 24:3

  While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” NWT

  Where do you see the apostles setting a date? They wanted a date and that's why they asked Jesus when the temple was going to be destroyed (see vs 2). Also, could you point out the scripture where the apostles strongly inferred a particular date and then accused anyone that questioned that date of apostacy?

  2 Thes:1,2 " 1 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. " NWT

  I was a little kid during the 1975 era but I remember very clearly what happened and how people disregarded this counsel. The WTS encouraged through parts, as well as in articles, the frenzy. What they should have done was said " Jesus said at an hour we aren't expecting it, then end will come". They chose not to do so because as an end time religion, the purpose is to get folks to whipped into frenzied activity. At no time in the WTS history have they been able to acheive such growth as the run-up to 1975.

  The new generation teaching is an effort to get some of that excitement back. Time will tell if it will work but the apathy problem is growing more noticable every day.
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  57

  this lurker's first post.

  by dances with smurfs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  :|.

  ...........im gonna go have an anxiety attack now.

  lol.

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  Doubting Bro

  Welcome - Love the user name!!! Look forward to reading your story.